I originally started this research in 1997 for myself and my immediate family, but the whole project has grown and introduced me to 'new cousins' also interested in the 'Gilbert's of Banham'. So now the circulation will be wider and more people will be able to comment and add to the story of all of our's family.
So far I have 'got back' as far as 1733. There is still much work that can be done in trying to develop some of the details of our ancestors and it would be wonderful if we can find links beyond this date. My knowledge of socal history is limited and an historian would help reveal more about how our ancesters lived and what drove them to settle in Banham and subsequently to move south in the Industrial Revolution.
All the following are my thoughts and impressions developed from the facts lying in parish records, census returns, maps, gazeteers, visiting the areas, and more recently from the internet, gleened initially to follow my direct line. Even they are not 'the truth'. Names are reused not only down the line, but across, and names are mispelt or nicknames used - errors can occur. Some links may need double checking or be disputed by others in the fullness of time, but Dr Nick Somogyi who used to work for the College of Arms checked my family tree in 1997 and agreed with it thus far.
To try to make it easier whilst writing this ever-changing document, I have put the dates of a person by their name and put the names in upper case eg ALEXANDRA (b1957). I hope this isn't too irritating, but organising the narrative became challenging once I went beyond births and deaths and tried to get a more detailed picture. I think this history works best when you have the actual family tree to consult alongside.
Apologies too for all the footnotes – not everyone's favourite thing – but essential as I got to the brain-befuddled stages and found myself asking “Why did I think that?”
Some of my speculations may be a bit free or coming from a point of ignorance, but hopefully in the future, I will find more information to help confirm, or send my suppositions in a different direction.
I have sometimes traced distantly related branches of the family as roads, in the future, to more information about our family through links with other genealogists or histories.
My move from England curtailed some of my investigations, which I hope may be picked up again at a later date or by others – maybe you!
Subscribing to Genes Reunited1 brought up 4 'cousins' (so far) whose research confirmed and added to mine and I hope that access to this narrative will help develop this 'history' further.
Also, there is a surname project (coming out of the USA) to genetically identify the Gilberts through male Y-DNA testing which (so far) has identified 37 geneticaly unique lines (now based mainly in the USA) carrying the Gilbert surname2. One of these lines is from ROBERT Gilbert (b1791) in Banham. His living descendant, EDWARD Gilbert has also contributed to the document through his research.
Thank you to everyone for their generosity in sharing.
Our Gilbert family were skilled artisans and tradesmen who also farmed tithed and freehold land - millwright, brickmaker, engineer. The women married farmers. There doesn't seem to be any real skeletons in closets or links to the famous or infamous but it is the ordinary person who keeps the fabric of society rolling and we should be just as proud of them as any hero or superstar.
1. www.genesreunited.co.uk
2. www.janegilbert.org
Thursday, 19 November 2009
The Origins of the Name 'Gilbert'
The name GILBERT is Norman French and North German. It comes from Giselbert, a Norman personal name composed of the Germanic gisil meaning nobel youth and berht meaning bright or famous. Gilbert has evolved from the spellings of Gislebert, Guilbert and Gilebert and has many other derivatives like Gilbart, Gelbart, Gilbertson, Gilbertti and Gillbert1.
Traditionally the GILBERTINES were an English order of monks founded in the 12th century by St Gilbert of Sempringham2 (1085-1189) and there were numerous convents of this order in the British Isles at the time of the suppression. This was the only native English monastic order and this, it is believed, contributed to the popularity of the name Gilbert during the Middle Ages.
Probably the earliest recorded 'Gilberts' were WILLELMUS GILBERTI reputedly listed in the Curia Regis Rolls in Wiltshire 1202 and a ROBERT GYLEBERT, recorded as living in Norfolk in 1235 3. There was a William GILBERT of Compton Castle, Marldon, Devon (1204 - 1210 - 1270) 4. which has been home for that branch of the GILBERT family for most of the time since it was built. Given to the National Trust in 1951, on the condition that the family should continue to occupy the castle, they administer it for the Trust.5
1. Gilbert – Wikipaedia.com
2. Sempringham is in Lincolnshire
3. The Origins of Your Family Name, Blue Chip Products
4. Submitted by John GILBERT - 24th in the line - 2 December 2017
5. Wikipedia "Compton Castle"
Traditionally the GILBERTINES were an English order of monks founded in the 12th century by St Gilbert of Sempringham2 (1085-1189) and there were numerous convents of this order in the British Isles at the time of the suppression. This was the only native English monastic order and this, it is believed, contributed to the popularity of the name Gilbert during the Middle Ages.
Probably the earliest recorded 'Gilberts' were WILLELMUS GILBERTI reputedly listed in the Curia Regis Rolls in Wiltshire 1202 and a ROBERT GYLEBERT, recorded as living in Norfolk in 1235 3. There was a William GILBERT of Compton Castle, Marldon, Devon (1204 - 1210 - 1270) 4. which has been home for that branch of the GILBERT family for most of the time since it was built. Given to the National Trust in 1951, on the condition that the family should continue to occupy the castle, they administer it for the Trust.5
1. Gilbert – Wikipaedia.com
2. Sempringham is in Lincolnshire
3. The Origins of Your Family Name, Blue Chip Products
4. Submitted by John GILBERT - 24th in the line - 2 December 2017
5. Wikipedia "Compton Castle"
Banham
There are no GILBERTs (or any similar spelling) listed in the records for Banham, Norfolk prior to 1733. I checked the Births / Christenings 1654-1724, Marriages 1654-1730 and Burials 1652-1723. The Parish Register dates from 1558. Though there are Gilberts in the wider Norfolk region, any link at this stage would be too tenuous. (This is where DNA testing might provide a link.)
In 1733 a ROBERT GILBERT (b. circa 1713) probably came from, we know not where, to marry SARAH ENGLISH (b. circa 1713) in a small village south of Norfolk called BANHAM. Banham is in the triangle of the market towns of Attleborough, Thetford and Diss.
At that time drovers came from all over England, Wales and Scotland to sell to the Norfolk markets, as did fishermen sailing the east coast. Between the 11th century and the industrial revolution, Norwich was England's second city to London. It is said that the area benefitted from the prosperity which came from the flourishing woollen industry in the16th and 17th centuries. Despite markets being held nearby, Banham had its own weekly market even having an annual fair for horses, toys, etc (still recorded in 1845 as being held on 22nd June).
There are Gilberts in Cornwall, the Midlands, you name it but, usually in the early 1700s, one family, as we find in Banham. So far not a clan that could give us clear links to that 'first' Robert in Banham.
The prevalence of the name Robert in the family, led my grandfather, ALBERT (b.1904), to speculate that our ancesters were originally Scottish, but he also put the black curly hair and engineering traits down to a Cornish link. A Scottish friend of mine pointed out that the name Robert was Norman French and was adopted by mixed Scottish-Norman families in honour of Robert I of Scotland (aka Robert de Brus, aka Robert the Bruce). Adding to this the Norman origins of the name Gilbert we could be looking at Norman French roots. It would be very tidy though if we could be linked with that 13th century ROBERT GYLEBERT of Norfolk mentioned above, this would show that Robert was a long established family name and our ROBERT (b. circa 1713) was not a long distance immigrant.
I visited Banham in 1997 whilst in Norfolk to study the Parish records. At the time the gravestones around the 14th century parish church were removed for cleaning, logging and re-positioning so I couldn't use them as a reference. (This source needs to be followed up). I decided to see if any of the buildings I had found on the tithe maps and parish information were still standing, as the centre of the village was mostly unchanged. I only had a few hours in Banham due to the country bus timetable so just photographed and wrote down what I came across. It wasn't until I got home (and since in writing this up) that I realised what an amazing treasure trove of information I had accumulated in such a short time.
In 1733 a ROBERT GILBERT (b. circa 1713) probably came from, we know not where, to marry SARAH ENGLISH (b. circa 1713) in a small village south of Norfolk called BANHAM. Banham is in the triangle of the market towns of Attleborough, Thetford and Diss.
Map showing the position of Banham in relation to Thetford, Attleborough, Wymondham, Norwich and Diss
At that time drovers came from all over England, Wales and Scotland to sell to the Norfolk markets, as did fishermen sailing the east coast. Between the 11th century and the industrial revolution, Norwich was England's second city to London. It is said that the area benefitted from the prosperity which came from the flourishing woollen industry in the16th and 17th centuries. Despite markets being held nearby, Banham had its own weekly market even having an annual fair for horses, toys, etc (still recorded in 1845 as being held on 22nd June).
There are Gilberts in Cornwall, the Midlands, you name it but, usually in the early 1700s, one family, as we find in Banham. So far not a clan that could give us clear links to that 'first' Robert in Banham.
The prevalence of the name Robert in the family, led my grandfather, ALBERT (b.1904), to speculate that our ancesters were originally Scottish, but he also put the black curly hair and engineering traits down to a Cornish link. A Scottish friend of mine pointed out that the name Robert was Norman French and was adopted by mixed Scottish-Norman families in honour of Robert I of Scotland (aka Robert de Brus, aka Robert the Bruce). Adding to this the Norman origins of the name Gilbert we could be looking at Norman French roots. It would be very tidy though if we could be linked with that 13th century ROBERT GYLEBERT of Norfolk mentioned above, this would show that Robert was a long established family name and our ROBERT (b. circa 1713) was not a long distance immigrant.
I visited Banham in 1997 whilst in Norfolk to study the Parish records. At the time the gravestones around the 14th century parish church were removed for cleaning, logging and re-positioning so I couldn't use them as a reference. (This source needs to be followed up). I decided to see if any of the buildings I had found on the tithe maps and parish information were still standing, as the centre of the village was mostly unchanged. I only had a few hours in Banham due to the country bus timetable so just photographed and wrote down what I came across. It wasn't until I got home (and since in writing this up) that I realised what an amazing treasure trove of information I had accumulated in such a short time.
The Banham Gilberts 1700-1764
The first mention of the Gilberts living in Banham is in the baptismal register for 1734 where the children of ROBERT GILBERT(b. circa 1713) and SARAH (b.circa 1713) are listed. Assuming that ROBERT and SARAH married at the age of 21, they would have been born circa 1713.
ROBERT and SARAH appear to have had 3 sons and a daughter;
1. Sarah born 7.9.1764, baptised 10.2.1773; Susannah born circa 1769 and married John Taylor 26.10.1789; James baptised 30.12.1772 and buried 19.12.1772; James baptised 10.2.1773; Samuel baptised 13.3.1774; Elizabeth buried 6.11.1776 and another Samuel born 27.3.1777 and baptised 2.4.1777. One of the Samuels was buried 1.5.1777. It would make sense that it was the second one, the first one's death having not been recorded. All were born, baptised and buried in Banham.
2. The Kenninghall, Norfolk records show a THOMAS TURNER being baptised at the age of 25 on 16.7.1837, son of LYDIA GILBERT born circa 1768 married to JAMES TURNER of Keninghall. The Kenninghall connection may be worth following up and those Parish records checked out.
3. A WILLIAM GATHERCOTE is also a witness at the wedding of ROBERT GILBERT to MARY KENT on 21.9.1789.
4. aka ARABELLA circa 1766 and ISABELLA 1770 and 1781, but pretty sure its the same person.
5. Six children if SUSANNAH is his and not SAMUEL and SUSANNAH's.
ROBERT and SARAH appear to have had 3 sons and a daughter;
- SAMUEL (baptised 15.2.1734) who married SUSANNA and had 6 or 7 children of whom at least 3 died in infancy. There appears to be no further information of the male line after 17771. They could have moved to SUSANNA's family village.
- On 26.10.1789 a SUSANNAH GILBERT marries JOHN TAYLOR 2.also of Banham.This is witnessed by LYDIA GILBERT and WILLIAM GATHERCOTE 3.
- JOHN (baptised 11.10.1737) who I believe married MARYand had a daughter SUSAN who was buried 22.4.1750 at Banham. The lack of records of their marriage may indicate that Mary was from another village. There is no further mention of this line after 1750 so again they may have moved to a neighbouring village.
- ROBERT (also baptised 11.10.1737). This Robert married an Isabel 4. COWELES in October 1763 and may have had 5 or 6 children 5. One of the witnesses to their wedding is JOHN TAYLOR who may be related to (or may be) the John Taylor who married SUSANNAH Gilbert (b. circa 1769) in 1789. In 1768, ROBERT (bap. 1737) is described as a Freeholder in the Norfolk Poll so would be a landowner and have some standing in the village. He is my ancestor.
1. Sarah born 7.9.1764, baptised 10.2.1773; Susannah born circa 1769 and married John Taylor 26.10.1789; James baptised 30.12.1772 and buried 19.12.1772; James baptised 10.2.1773; Samuel baptised 13.3.1774; Elizabeth buried 6.11.1776 and another Samuel born 27.3.1777 and baptised 2.4.1777. One of the Samuels was buried 1.5.1777. It would make sense that it was the second one, the first one's death having not been recorded. All were born, baptised and buried in Banham.
2. The Kenninghall, Norfolk records show a THOMAS TURNER being baptised at the age of 25 on 16.7.1837, son of LYDIA GILBERT born circa 1768 married to JAMES TURNER of Keninghall. The Kenninghall connection may be worth following up and those Parish records checked out.
3. A WILLIAM GATHERCOTE is also a witness at the wedding of ROBERT GILBERT to MARY KENT on 21.9.1789.
4. aka ARABELLA circa 1766 and ISABELLA 1770 and 1781, but pretty sure its the same person.
5. Six children if SUSANNAH is his and not SAMUEL and SUSANNAH's.
Banham 1765-1789
ROBERT (b. circa 1737) and ISABEL's eldest child is JOHN (b. circa 1764). He is baptised on 23.8.1761 aged 2 years. JOHN appears to marry three subsequent MARY's;
ROBERT (b.circa 1737) and ISABEL's second child is another ROBERT (circa 1766-1840) who was baptised in 1766 and in 1789 married MARY KENT. This ROBERT is my direct descendant, so more of him later in The Millwrights. He dies at the ripe old age of 74 sometime before the end of September 1840.
- Mary Chapman of Banham on 3.5.1785 and witnessed by Elizabeth Hait (?). Mary is buried 17.7.1797, the same day as her son CHAPMAN, so probably died following complications during childbirth.
- SARAH born 13.3.1782 and baptised 4 days later at Banham.
- MARY born on 17.8.1785 and baptised 8 days later but there is also a record of their MARY being buried on 15.5.1785 aged 14 years at Banham check my records
- CHAPMAN born 30.4.1797 and baptised on 14.5.1797. He is buried in Banham on 17.7.1797 when his father is shown as a widower.
- Mary Berney of Banham married on 17.11.1798, just over a year after JOHN (b. 1764)'s first wife's death and at the age of about 34 years old. The marriage was witnessed by George Downs (Jnr). This is likely to be the same George Downs that witnesses ROBERT (circa 1766-1840) and MARY KENT's wedding a year later.
- Mary Drake of Banham on 1.11.1816 witnessed by MARIA GILBERT1. and ROBERT GILBERT. JOHN (b. 1764) would have been about 52 years old.
ROBERT (b.circa 1737) and ISABEL's second child is another ROBERT (circa 1766-1840) who was baptised in 1766 and in 1789 married MARY KENT. This ROBERT is my direct descendant, so more of him later in The Millwrights. He dies at the ripe old age of 74 sometime before the end of September 1840.
The next child is REBECCA (b. circa1770) (aka REBEKAH in 1790) who was baptised in Banham on 18.8.1770 2. REBECCA marries John Woods (Jnr) a Banham man on 10.12.1787 with ROBERT (either her father or her brother who is aged 21) as a witness. Sadly REBEKAH is buried on 7.10.1790 after having been married only three years and aged only 20 years old. There is no evidence, but her death could have been from childbirth.
ISABEL (bap 1772) is their next child and all we know about her is that she was baptised on 14.12.1772.
Their last child is LIVIA born 12.3.1781 and baptised 4 days later. Her father and mother would have been in their early to mid forties. ISABEL (bap. 1772) and LIVIA (b. 1781) don't appear in later marriage or death records for Banham.
Going back now to ROBERT (circa1766-1840) and MARY KENT who married in 1789. They have 10 children between 1790 and 1805, most of whom survive to marry. ROBERT (circa 1766-1840) seems to have been very successful; a wheelwright in 1802, a millwright in 1806 and a maltster. He dies leaving a Will showing he owned a house with a Millwright's shop ajoined to it in Banham, three dwellings with yard, gardens, newly built brick and tiled stables and a cart lodge, 3 acres of enclosed arable land, brick kilns, a malting and a post windmill...
...“with patent sails, fly wheel and all necessary and modern machinery lately completely fitted up and capable of doing an extensive business and now in the occupation of Mr. Jonas Mallett 3 and others.” (4)
ROBERT (circa 1766-1840)'s signature appears in the parish accounts of 1829 (and some other year's records) as an overseer that the accounts were correct indicating that he had been educated.5
ROBERT (circa 1766-1840) and MARY's first children are twin daughters MARY ANN (aka MARIA circa 1815) and REBEKAH ISABELL born on 10.1.1790 (4 months after their marriage and not easy to hide!). Both girls are baptised on 2.2.1790 6. We hear no more of REBEKAH, but when MARY ANN is 23 years old, she marries Joseph Howlett also of Banham on 26.5.1813. Their marriage is witnessed by the mark of GEORGE GILBERT (b.1796) who, assuming it is Mary Ann's brother, would be 17 years old 7. They appear to have only one child; George Howlett (b. circa 1828) born 15 years after they marry. In the 1841 census, George Howlett is 13 years old and found living with his uncle and aunt in Westgate Street, Banham. Further investigation into any Howletts of Banham might shed more light.
Two years into their marriage, ROBERT (circa 1766-1840) and MARY have their first son on 19th October 1791 and duly call him ROBERT (b.1791)! He is baptised 8 days later. More of him below.
Two more daughters follow. LUCY born 19.2.1793 and baptised 3 days later and of whom we hear no more, and HANNA MARIA born just over a year later on 27.3.1794 and baptised a week later.
HANNAH MARIA (b.1794) marries Edward Roper of Bressingham 6 on 13.4.1824. She would have been 30 years old, quite some age in those days. As her father is 58 by now she may have stayed at home to look after her parents and younger siblings - who knows?! HANNAH MARIA (b. 1794)'s brother and sister WILLIAM GILBERT (b1802) and SARAH WOODCOCK7 (aged 26) witness the wedding.
In 1841, Edward Roper is listed as a farmer living at Tickenhall Street, Banham with his wife HANNAH MARIA. They are both 45 years old and have three children John Roper aged 15 and born around 2 years after they married, Eliza Roper aged 12 and Edward Roper aged 4.
Twenty years later the 1861 census tells us that the family is living at 111 Great Green, Banham. Edward Roper Snr (aged 66) is a Farmer of 38 acres employing two labourers and a boy.
Houses on Great Green, Banham (1997)
HANNAH MARIA (b. 1794) and Edward Roper live to a ripe old age for the time. They appear again in the 1871 census as being 76 and 77 years old. This time HANNAH MARIA (b.1794) is shown as being a year older than Edward. They now have retired and are living at 57 Great Green. Eliza Roper, still unmarried at aged 42, is living with them as is their grandaughter Martha E aged 6. It is unknown whether Martha E is the daughter of John Roper (b circa 1826) who would be 45 years old or Edward Roper (b circa 1837) who would be 34 years old or - shock! horror! – unmarried Eliza Roper (b circa 1829). The 'E' could stand for 'Eliza'!!!!!!
The Roper family stay in Banham for some time. Both White's History Gazeteer & Directory of Norfolk 1883 and 1892 list Miss Eliza Roper living at Yew Cottage and her older brother John Roper who is a farmer, assistant overseer and highway rate collector. By 1892 John is Clerk to the School Board and Attendance Officer 8. He would be 66 years old and his sister 63.
On 25th July 1796, ROBERT (circa 1766-1840) and MARY KENT have their sixth child and second son, GEORGE (b.1796). He is baptised 6 days later. Because the core architecture of Banham hasn't changed and because of the importance of his occupation to the economic survival of the village, I could find out a lot about GEORGE (b.1796), so he also gets a section The Brickmaker devoted to him later.
SARAH is born on 6.12.1798 and baptised 4 days later. She marries George Woodcock of East Harling in Banham on 20.7.1819. East Harling is a village on the road from Banham to Attleborough. The marriage is witnessed by John Gaymer and Mary Palmer. (See The Cider Makers below).
George Woodcock is shown in the Parish accounts to have paid 2/6d for firing cutting on 1.10.1823. I am not sure if this is a fine or a charge. It is likely that SARAH (b.1798) died between 1833 and 1841 in her mid-to-late 30s. We can guess this because George Woodcock is listed in the 1841 census as a Butcher of Whithurst Street, East Harling. He has four children; Ester (sic) aged 15, Charles aged 15, Mary aged 14 and George aged 8. No wife is listed.9 George Woodcock continues to be entioned in the 1850 Gazeteer as a Butcher (he would be about 50 years old).
ROBERT (circa1766-1840) and MARY KENT's third son (and eighth child) is born at Banham on 11.12.1800 and baptised 5 days after. He is named JOSEPH (b.1800) and is my direct line, so more about him later in The Engineers.
Their last child is LIVIA born 12.3.1781 and baptised 4 days later. Her father and mother would have been in their early to mid forties. ISABEL (bap. 1772) and LIVIA (b. 1781) don't appear in later marriage or death records for Banham.
Going back now to ROBERT (circa1766-1840) and MARY KENT who married in 1789. They have 10 children between 1790 and 1805, most of whom survive to marry. ROBERT (circa 1766-1840) seems to have been very successful; a wheelwright in 1802, a millwright in 1806 and a maltster. He dies leaving a Will showing he owned a house with a Millwright's shop ajoined to it in Banham, three dwellings with yard, gardens, newly built brick and tiled stables and a cart lodge, 3 acres of enclosed arable land, brick kilns, a malting and a post windmill...
...“with patent sails, fly wheel and all necessary and modern machinery lately completely fitted up and capable of doing an extensive business and now in the occupation of Mr. Jonas Mallett 3 and others.” (4)
ROBERT (circa 1766-1840)'s signature appears in the parish accounts of 1829 (and some other year's records) as an overseer that the accounts were correct indicating that he had been educated.5
ROBERT (circa 1766-1840) and MARY's first children are twin daughters MARY ANN (aka MARIA circa 1815) and REBEKAH ISABELL born on 10.1.1790 (4 months after their marriage and not easy to hide!). Both girls are baptised on 2.2.1790 6. We hear no more of REBEKAH, but when MARY ANN is 23 years old, she marries Joseph Howlett also of Banham on 26.5.1813. Their marriage is witnessed by the mark of GEORGE GILBERT (b.1796) who, assuming it is Mary Ann's brother, would be 17 years old 7. They appear to have only one child; George Howlett (b. circa 1828) born 15 years after they marry. In the 1841 census, George Howlett is 13 years old and found living with his uncle and aunt in Westgate Street, Banham. Further investigation into any Howletts of Banham might shed more light.
Two years into their marriage, ROBERT (circa 1766-1840) and MARY have their first son on 19th October 1791 and duly call him ROBERT (b.1791)! He is baptised 8 days later. More of him below.
Two more daughters follow. LUCY born 19.2.1793 and baptised 3 days later and of whom we hear no more, and HANNA MARIA born just over a year later on 27.3.1794 and baptised a week later.
HANNAH MARIA (b.1794) marries Edward Roper of Bressingham 6 on 13.4.1824. She would have been 30 years old, quite some age in those days. As her father is 58 by now she may have stayed at home to look after her parents and younger siblings - who knows?! HANNAH MARIA (b. 1794)'s brother and sister WILLIAM GILBERT (b1802) and SARAH WOODCOCK7 (aged 26) witness the wedding.
In 1841, Edward Roper is listed as a farmer living at Tickenhall Street, Banham with his wife HANNAH MARIA. They are both 45 years old and have three children John Roper aged 15 and born around 2 years after they married, Eliza Roper aged 12 and Edward Roper aged 4.
Twenty years later the 1861 census tells us that the family is living at 111 Great Green, Banham. Edward Roper Snr (aged 66) is a Farmer of 38 acres employing two labourers and a boy.Houses on Great Green, Banham (1997)
The Roper family stay in Banham for some time. Both White's History Gazeteer & Directory of Norfolk 1883 and 1892 list Miss Eliza Roper living at Yew Cottage and her older brother John Roper who is a farmer, assistant overseer and highway rate collector. By 1892 John is Clerk to the School Board and Attendance Officer 8. He would be 66 years old and his sister 63.
On 25th July 1796, ROBERT (circa 1766-1840) and MARY KENT have their sixth child and second son, GEORGE (b.1796). He is baptised 6 days later. Because the core architecture of Banham hasn't changed and because of the importance of his occupation to the economic survival of the village, I could find out a lot about GEORGE (b.1796), so he also gets a section The Brickmaker devoted to him later.
SARAH is born on 6.12.1798 and baptised 4 days later. She marries George Woodcock of East Harling in Banham on 20.7.1819. East Harling is a village on the road from Banham to Attleborough. The marriage is witnessed by John Gaymer and Mary Palmer. (See The Cider Makers below).
George Woodcock is shown in the Parish accounts to have paid 2/6d for firing cutting on 1.10.1823. I am not sure if this is a fine or a charge. It is likely that SARAH (b.1798) died between 1833 and 1841 in her mid-to-late 30s. We can guess this because George Woodcock is listed in the 1841 census as a Butcher of Whithurst Street, East Harling. He has four children; Ester (sic) aged 15, Charles aged 15, Mary aged 14 and George aged 8. No wife is listed.9 George Woodcock continues to be entioned in the 1850 Gazeteer as a Butcher (he would be about 50 years old).
ROBERT (circa1766-1840) and MARY KENT's third son (and eighth child) is born at Banham on 11.12.1800 and baptised 5 days after. He is named JOSEPH (b.1800) and is my direct line, so more about him later in The Engineers.
1. MARIA is likely to be MARY ANN (b1790) daughter of ROBERT (circa 1766-1840) as she is stated as being MARIA in the 1815 census and would be about 26 years old. ROBERT could be her brother (b1791) who would be aged 25 or her father who would be 50 years old.
2. This is 4 years after her brother so it is still conceivable that SUSANNAH, who I have put in SAMUEL and SUSANNA's family, could fit as an elder sister.
3. Probably his employees keeping the business going.
4. Norfolk Chronicle - 26th September, 3rd & 10th October 1840 quoted on www.norfolkmills.co.uk
5. I am assuming the Robert Gilbert referred to in the parish records at this time is Robert (bapt 1766) and therefore aged around 53 and not his son Robert (b.1791) who would be aged 38 – this may be a misassumption and needs further evidence to prove. His son George (b1796) can not write at age 17.
6. We know REBEKAH is not the one buried 7.10.1790 because that record clearly states the person as being aged 20 years at death.
7. Would he be able to be a witness at this age?
8. Kelly's 1892.
9. Assuming SARAH mothered all the children, CHARLES would have been born circa 1833. in 1841 SARAH does not appear in the census entry. Death is far more likely than divorce in those days!
3. Probably his employees keeping the business going.
4. Norfolk Chronicle - 26th September, 3rd & 10th October 1840 quoted on www.norfolkmills.co.uk
5. I am assuming the Robert Gilbert referred to in the parish records at this time is Robert (bapt 1766) and therefore aged around 53 and not his son Robert (b.1791) who would be aged 38 – this may be a misassumption and needs further evidence to prove. His son George (b1796) can not write at age 17.
6. We know REBEKAH is not the one buried 7.10.1790 because that record clearly states the person as being aged 20 years at death.
7. Would he be able to be a witness at this age?
8. Kelly's 1892.
9. Assuming SARAH mothered all the children, CHARLES would have been born circa 1833. in 1841 SARAH does not appear in the census entry. Death is far more likely than divorce in those days!
A Little Bit of Scandal
Two years on and the next child is born – WILLIAM on 26.12.1802. He is baptised on 5.1.1803.The youngest son of ROBERT (b1766) and MARY KENT, WILLIAM witnesses his sister Hanna Maria's marriage to Edward Roper (so we know he can write) and appears on the Poor Record for the Parish. From 1823 to 1836 (when he is 21 years old and for 13 years) he pays 1/6d for the upkeep of SARAH ROPER's illegitimate child. SARAH ROPER (b circa 1798) was born in Old Buckenham two villages towards Attleborough and could well be EDWARD ROPER's (husband of HANNAH MARIA GILBERT (b1794)) older sister. Interestingly this payment starts about a year before HANNAH MARIA and EDWARD ROPER marry. Did this 'family scandal' bring them together?.
In 1841, SARAH ROPER is shown as 43 years old (WILLIAM GILBERT is about 39 and married to another woman). She has a child ROBERT (aged 14) living with her in Church Green, Banham. This doesn't quite tally – their child would be about 18 years old in 1841 – so its probably not ROBERT who was WILLIAM and SARAH's lovechild. Being 18 years old, the child could have already moved out of his or her home to work or marry. But ROBERT is likely to have the family name ROPER as another name is not shown in the census. Of course people do also lie, make mistakes and may be the math was more socially acceptable on paper?
However, in 1861 SARAH ROPER is living at 138 Tickenhall Street (the same street, and maybe house, her father lived in in 1841 – he now lives at Great Green). She is aged 70 and designated as a pauper and still using the name ROPER so probably never married. Living with her is 10 year old THRIZA SCARFE (b circa 1851) shown as granddaughter and scholar.
My thinking is that if THRIZA SCARFE is a true grand daughter, the first illegitimate child was a daughter who moved away and married into the SCARFE family. However there is also a THRIZA GERMANY (b circa 1855) who is SARAH ROPER's 'neice' and MARY ANN GERMANY's (daughter of GEORGE GILBERT b 1796) daughter. The unusualness of the first name makes me wonder if there is a connection. Someday, someone may go down this route and find those connections!
In 1831 WILLIAM aged 29 marries REBECCA GASKIN (m.12.10.1831) whilst still paying 'child support' to SARAH ROPER. REBECCA is from Banham so would no doubt know all about WILLIAM's illegitimate child. The witnesses at the wedding are ANN GILBERT (probably ROBERT's (b1891) wife), MARIA CHAPMAN (her mark), Michael Wiley and George Minton. MARIA CHAPMAN is is likey to be a relative of JOHN GILBERT (b. circa 1764) and his first wife MARY CHAPMAN (circa 1735-1797).
In 1841, SARAH ROPER is shown as 43 years old (WILLIAM GILBERT is about 39 and married to another woman). She has a child ROBERT (aged 14) living with her in Church Green, Banham. This doesn't quite tally – their child would be about 18 years old in 1841 – so its probably not ROBERT who was WILLIAM and SARAH's lovechild. Being 18 years old, the child could have already moved out of his or her home to work or marry. But ROBERT is likely to have the family name ROPER as another name is not shown in the census. Of course people do also lie, make mistakes and may be the math was more socially acceptable on paper?
However, in 1861 SARAH ROPER is living at 138 Tickenhall Street (the same street, and maybe house, her father lived in in 1841 – he now lives at Great Green). She is aged 70 and designated as a pauper and still using the name ROPER so probably never married. Living with her is 10 year old THRIZA SCARFE (b circa 1851) shown as granddaughter and scholar.
My thinking is that if THRIZA SCARFE is a true grand daughter, the first illegitimate child was a daughter who moved away and married into the SCARFE family. However there is also a THRIZA GERMANY (b circa 1855) who is SARAH ROPER's 'neice' and MARY ANN GERMANY's (daughter of GEORGE GILBERT b 1796) daughter. The unusualness of the first name makes me wonder if there is a connection. Someday, someone may go down this route and find those connections!
In 1831 WILLIAM aged 29 marries REBECCA GASKIN (m.12.10.1831) whilst still paying 'child support' to SARAH ROPER. REBECCA is from Banham so would no doubt know all about WILLIAM's illegitimate child. The witnesses at the wedding are ANN GILBERT (probably ROBERT's (b1891) wife), MARIA CHAPMAN (her mark), Michael Wiley and George Minton. MARIA CHAPMAN is is likey to be a relative of JOHN GILBERT (b. circa 1764) and his first wife MARY CHAPMAN (circa 1735-1797).
The Routs of Banham
The youngest daughter LIVY aka Levy (23.1.1805) marries SAMUEL ROUT of Shelfanger (a village on the Diss Road from Banham) on 17.10.1821. She would have been only 16 years old. The marriage was witnessed by EDWARD ROPER (to be HANNA MARIA's farmer1 husband two and a half years later) and SOPHIA ROUT (probably the sister or mother of the groom SAMUEL). They have five children; WILLIAM ROUT (b circa 1826), GEORGE ROUT (b. circa 1825) ELLEN(?) (b. circa 1824), RICHARD ROUT (b circa 1830) and ELIZABETH (b. circa 1832).
By 1861, RICHARD ROUT lives at 128 Tickenhall Street and is a Butcher2in Banham. He has a wife MARIA from Stowmarket and four children AGNES L (b.circa 1855), HENRY C (b. circa 1857), WILLIE (b circa 1859), and FREDERICK (b. circa 1861). RICHARD's sister ELIZABETH (aged 27) lives with the family as a servant.
The ROUTS were prominent members of Banham from this point on. RICHARD ROUT sat on the School Board (formed in 1875) with WILLIAM GAYMER JNR, and the ROUT family are listed as cider makers, butchers and dealers in 18613 and 18834. In 1881 Richard employed 4 men. His son FREDERICK is listed as a Cider Merchant and HENRY C a butcher living at 28 North Bight5.
In 1896 L.F.6 Rout & Co Ltd - already cider makers in Banham - took over their rivals Gaymer's Banham enterprise when Gaymer's moved to Attleborough (probably due to the need for expansion). Gaymer's were already using a hydraulic press introduced in 1870 but the GILBERT family had moved away by then so it is tenuous that the GILBERT Engineers would have had anything to do with its design.
ALBERT V ROUT appears on the First World War memorial in Banham.
In the 1930's Mr Rout, owner of the cider works, bought a large area, including the area near the old brick works and built a house called the 'Garden of Eden' where he dug a tunnel, filled it with coloured lights and charged courting couples to walk through it, The Garden of Eden scene was used on Rout's cider bottle labels of the time7.
1. White's Directory 1845 , Kelly's Directory 1845, Hunt & Co's Directory 1850.
2. Sarah Roper lives at 138 Tickenhall St in 1861 and Edward Roper lived in the street in 1841 but we don't know the number.
3. 1861 census.
4. White's Directory 1883.
5. 1881 census.
6. Leonard Frederick Rout. Lived at Lydford House according to Kelly's 1929 Directory.
7. Banham Heritage Register, 1991.
By 1861, RICHARD ROUT lives at 128 Tickenhall Street and is a Butcher2in Banham. He has a wife MARIA from Stowmarket and four children AGNES L (b.circa 1855), HENRY C (b. circa 1857), WILLIE (b circa 1859), and FREDERICK (b. circa 1861). RICHARD's sister ELIZABETH (aged 27) lives with the family as a servant.
The ROUTS were prominent members of Banham from this point on. RICHARD ROUT sat on the School Board (formed in 1875) with WILLIAM GAYMER JNR, and the ROUT family are listed as cider makers, butchers and dealers in 18613 and 18834. In 1881 Richard employed 4 men. His son FREDERICK is listed as a Cider Merchant and HENRY C a butcher living at 28 North Bight5.
In 1896 L.F.6 Rout & Co Ltd - already cider makers in Banham - took over their rivals Gaymer's Banham enterprise when Gaymer's moved to Attleborough (probably due to the need for expansion). Gaymer's were already using a hydraulic press introduced in 1870 but the GILBERT family had moved away by then so it is tenuous that the GILBERT Engineers would have had anything to do with its design.
ALBERT V ROUT appears on the First World War memorial in Banham.
In the 1930's Mr Rout, owner of the cider works, bought a large area, including the area near the old brick works and built a house called the 'Garden of Eden' where he dug a tunnel, filled it with coloured lights and charged courting couples to walk through it, The Garden of Eden scene was used on Rout's cider bottle labels of the time7.
1. White's Directory 1845 , Kelly's Directory 1845, Hunt & Co's Directory 1850.
2. Sarah Roper lives at 138 Tickenhall St in 1861 and Edward Roper lived in the street in 1841 but we don't know the number.
3. 1861 census.
4. White's Directory 1883.
5. 1881 census.
6. Leonard Frederick Rout. Lived at Lydford House according to Kelly's 1929 Directory.
7. Banham Heritage Register, 1991.
The Millwrights
We now go back to ROBERT GILBERT (b1766-1840) and his three eldest sons in more detail. We are lucky that documenting population and printing developed and gained importance. Although there had been attempts at census at the end of the 17th century, we start to get valuable information every ten years from 1841 which helps build up a clearer picture of our ancestors.
There is some confusion over Parish records and directory entries during 1810-1840 as both ROBERT GILBERT (1766-1840) and his son ROBERT GILBERT (b1791) are Millwrights and these records do not distinguish between the two. There has to be some deduction and I stand to be corrected!
Between 1823 and 1835 a ROBERT GILBERT pays Poor Rates and tithes (a kind of local welfare contribution) for 2 units of land between 1823 and 1835 and there is evidence in the Poor Accounts that he also owned an orchard, so may have received income from selling apples to the local cider makers.
A ROBERT GILBERT is listed in White's Directory of 1836 as a Millwright. ROBERT GILBERT (1766-1840) would be 70 years old so, assuming they worked together, it is likely to be his son. The ROBERT GILBERT listed in Kelly's and White's of 1845 as a Millwright also has to be ROBERT born in 1791 as we know that his father died in 18401.
What is a Millwright?
In 1840 the watermill in Hingham3
The mill became known as Banham Composite Mill and milled corn. Banham also had a watermill and a post mill but it doesn't look like these were owned by our family. However, they would have been maintained and maybe even built by our ancestors.
I am guessing that the significance of this mill to Banham would mean that flour was no longer ground in neighbouring villages or ground at home. It may also have been a pure business opportunity - a Millwright seeing a gap in the local market.
It is likely that ROBERT GILBERT Snr (1766-1840) brought the composite mill to Banham as the auction of his chattels upon his death includes the mill and describes it as “lately completely fitted up.” He would have been 74, though, so it is likely that his son physically brought it and did the main fitting, but he owned it.
We see that ROBERT GILBERT (1766-1840) dies a wealthy man but does not bequeath his property to his wife (she may well have died by now) nor any of his 10 children despite leaving a Will - according to the auction notice. He owns a Millwright shop and a Mill but does not pass them to his Millwright son, ROBERT (b1791). He owns brick kilns but does not bequeath them to his Brickmaker son GEORGE (b1796). His third son JOSEPH is in Bury St Edmonds in 1841 so may well have already left Banham and we don't know where his youngest son WILLIAM and his family were. It all goes up for auction in October 1840. It may be that each son had his own property and ROBERT agreed the auction with them on making up the Will and they would get the cash. The Will would need to be consulted to confirm this, we only have the auction notice.
However, we see ROBERT GILBERT Snr as a man who is of significance to the fabric of his village. He has his finger in the 'building pie', the 'food pie' the 'drink pie' – at a time when alcohol is safer to consume than water – and is active in the management of the parish as well as literally keeping the cogs and wheels of the area running!
Who bought the mill on ROBERT (1766-1840)'s death? Surprisingly it's not one of his sons. It seems that John MALLETT who occupies the Mill on ROBERT's death in 1840 bought it because it is once again up for sale by auction in May 1863 “by direction of the Executor under the will of Mr John Mallett deceased....”5 This is signficant because it is likely that the mill was then bought by ROBERT GILBERT's (b1791) wife Ann Hewitt's6 family as the mill, house, cottage and just over 5 acres of arable land once again go up for auction on 13 September 1894 as part of the disposal of the estate of the deceased JAS (JAMES?) HEWITT 7 There is a JAMES HEWITT listed as a butcher and a farmer (though spellings seem to change) in the village Directories8. As James Hewitt was about 84 years old at his death in 1894 his relationship to ANN is unclear.
Returning to the 1841 census, ROBERT GILBERT (b1791) is aged 45. They have 3 sons living with them;
All of the sons carry on the trade of Millwright. They also all live in Westgate Street, Banham. In 1851 Robert is employing 2 men, one we can assume is the listed Blacksmith Albert Cooper aged 21 from Bunwell, Norfolk who is living with them. ROBERT's son WILLIAM (b 1826) is living at 119 Westgate Street married to ANN of Shelfanger (aged 28) and they have a 3 year old daughter ELLA EMMA.
We lose track of the third son, JOHN between 1841 and 1881 when he turns up at 7 Harwood Terrace, Fulham, London sharing with the ENGLEFIELD family and married to SOPHIA of Woodbridge, Suffolk. He is 52 years old and still a Millwright.
By 1861, ROBERT (b 1791) and ANN are still together, now 70 years old – again a good age for the time. They still live in Westgate Street and we now know it is number 77.
ROBERT (b 1791) still employs two men. Living with them are two grandsons ARTHUR COOK, aged 24 and THOMAS COOK aged 20, both born in Norwich (these could also be his employees). This implies that Robert and Ann also had a daughter who married and moved away to Norwich unless ARTHUR and THOMAS COOK are adopted grandchildren - maybe through Ann's family (which came from Norwich - maybe she had a sister who died...?) We know that an ISAAC COOK (of Cook's Place fame) farmed from The Grove, Banham and sat on the School Board some 20 years later in 1883 (White's 1883).9
EDWARD (b. circa 1810) and ELIZABETH's son ROBERT (b 1841) is found in Turnpike, Stratton St Mary, Norfolk in 1881 with a wife SUSANNAH aged 32. She was born in nearby Carleton Roole, and they have 4 young sons all born in Stratton St Mary10 . They are living with his much younger brother WILLIAM E GILBERT (born circa 1861) and his family. Both are Millwrights; ROBERT (B 1841) by now being a Master Millwright. SUSANNAH GILBERT (1843-1892) dies and ROBERT, at the age of 53, remarries MARY in about 1893. They have a child MABEL in 1894. ROBERT dies in 1903 (check this could be mary).
WILLIAM E GILBERT marries MARY C. HOGG around 1889 and they have two children ISOBEL A (1890-1952) and WILLIAM E (1889-1951). This line continues today.
1. Notice of auction of chattels, Norfolk Cronicle September 1840 as quoted in www.norfolkmills.co.uk
2. www.wikipedia.com
3bsp; Hingham is on the B1108 and reached by going north through Attleborough - a good 10 miles from Banham.
4. http://www.norfolkmills.co.nz
5. www.norfolkmills.co.nz
6. ANN (HEWITT) GILBERT is probably the same ANN GILBERT who witnessed the youngest Gilbert brother WILLIAM GILBERT's (b 26.12.1802), wedding to REBECCA GASKIN on the 12.10.1831.
7. Norfolk Chronicle - 25th August 1894 quoted in www.norfolkmills.co.uk
8. White's 1836, White's Directory 1845, Hunt's 1850 – not in White's 1883 or Kelly's 1929
9. I concentrated my efforts on Joseph and his family during my research, so the Cook's can easily be checked for in the 1881 census.
10. Robert born 1877 and married to Kate in 1897; George E, born 1878 ; Walter born 1879 and Alfred born 1880
There is some confusion over Parish records and directory entries during 1810-1840 as both ROBERT GILBERT (1766-1840) and his son ROBERT GILBERT (b1791) are Millwrights and these records do not distinguish between the two. There has to be some deduction and I stand to be corrected!
Between 1823 and 1835 a ROBERT GILBERT pays Poor Rates and tithes (a kind of local welfare contribution) for 2 units of land between 1823 and 1835 and there is evidence in the Poor Accounts that he also owned an orchard, so may have received income from selling apples to the local cider makers.
A ROBERT GILBERT is listed in White's Directory of 1836 as a Millwright. ROBERT GILBERT (1766-1840) would be 70 years old so, assuming they worked together, it is likely to be his son. The ROBERT GILBERT listed in Kelly's and White's of 1845 as a Millwright also has to be ROBERT born in 1791 as we know that his father died in 18401.
What is a Millwright?
“Derived from the trade of carpentry, a millwright originally was a specialized, trained carpenter who had working knowledge of gear ratios, driveshaft speeds, and other equations. The "mill" in millwright refers to the genesis of the trade in building flour mills and other watermills and windmills".2
In 1840 the watermill in Hingham3
“worked in conjunction with a postmill that had been in the Lane family since at least 1771 and c.1840 John Lane decided to sell it and erect a new towermill at the same location near the south west corner of the pond.
The postmill was bought by millwright, Robert Gilbert, who quite possibly was responsible for building the new towermill for the Lane family. He took the postmill to Banham and erected (to erect?) it on the base of an old towermill..... The body of ...(the)... mill was moved from Hingham on a drug hauled by ten horses; it was to have been erected on top of the ridge, but the drug became bogged and it was decided to build the tower there and erect the mill on it. “
The mill became known as Banham Composite Mill and milled corn. Banham also had a watermill and a post mill but it doesn't look like these were owned by our family. However, they would have been maintained and maybe even built by our ancestors.
“The 40 foot mill consisted of a 15ft 6ins long by 10ft wide postmill buck set onto a curb set on the top of a two storey brick tower that may well have been built for the purpose. The 4 double shuttered patent sails each had 7 bays of 3 shutters. The six bladed fan was set on top of the buck and connected down to a rackThe Banham Composite Mill in 1932
on the curb on the tower engaged by twin spur pinions on the opposite ends of a horizontal shaft. The brake wheel had two pairs of cogs; the outer row with iron segments bolted to the extreme edge of the wheel rim drove the stones and the inner cogs drove the sack hoist and ancilliary machinery.”“The mill started life in Banham with two pairs of French burr stones, a configuration that was later changed to a wooden clasp arm spur wheel that drove two pairs of stones in the breast of the mill and an iron tail wheel drove another pair of stones in the tail of the mill, all the stones being underdriven.
"There was no external access and the interior of the mill was reached via the inside of the brick tower base. The porch was left in situ and fenced to become a balcony. A central strut on each side of the buck connected to the revolving petticoat and lower roof section.”4
I am guessing that the significance of this mill to Banham would mean that flour was no longer ground in neighbouring villages or ground at home. It may also have been a pure business opportunity - a Millwright seeing a gap in the local market.
It is likely that ROBERT GILBERT Snr (1766-1840) brought the composite mill to Banham as the auction of his chattels upon his death includes the mill and describes it as “lately completely fitted up.” He would have been 74, though, so it is likely that his son physically brought it and did the main fitting, but he owned it.
We see that ROBERT GILBERT (1766-1840) dies a wealthy man but does not bequeath his property to his wife (she may well have died by now) nor any of his 10 children despite leaving a Will - according to the auction notice. He owns a Millwright shop and a Mill but does not pass them to his Millwright son, ROBERT (b1791). He owns brick kilns but does not bequeath them to his Brickmaker son GEORGE (b1796). His third son JOSEPH is in Bury St Edmonds in 1841 so may well have already left Banham and we don't know where his youngest son WILLIAM and his family were. It all goes up for auction in October 1840. It may be that each son had his own property and ROBERT agreed the auction with them on making up the Will and they would get the cash. The Will would need to be consulted to confirm this, we only have the auction notice.
However, we see ROBERT GILBERT Snr as a man who is of significance to the fabric of his village. He has his finger in the 'building pie', the 'food pie' the 'drink pie' – at a time when alcohol is safer to consume than water – and is active in the management of the parish as well as literally keeping the cogs and wheels of the area running!
Who bought the mill on ROBERT (1766-1840)'s death? Surprisingly it's not one of his sons. It seems that John MALLETT who occupies the Mill on ROBERT's death in 1840 bought it because it is once again up for sale by auction in May 1863 “by direction of the Executor under the will of Mr John Mallett deceased....”5 This is signficant because it is likely that the mill was then bought by ROBERT GILBERT's (b1791) wife Ann Hewitt's6 family as the mill, house, cottage and just over 5 acres of arable land once again go up for auction on 13 September 1894 as part of the disposal of the estate of the deceased JAS (JAMES?) HEWITT 7 There is a JAMES HEWITT listed as a butcher and a farmer (though spellings seem to change) in the village Directories8. As James Hewitt was about 84 years old at his death in 1894 his relationship to ANN is unclear.
Returning to the 1841 census, ROBERT GILBERT (b1791) is aged 45. They have 3 sons living with them;
- EDWARD born circa 1810 and married to ELIZABETH aged 30. They have a 6 month old son ROBERT (b1841),
- WILLAM (aged 15, so born circa 1826) and
- JOHN (aged 14, so born circa 1827).
All of the sons carry on the trade of Millwright. They also all live in Westgate Street, Banham. In 1851 Robert is employing 2 men, one we can assume is the listed Blacksmith Albert Cooper aged 21 from Bunwell, Norfolk who is living with them. ROBERT's son WILLIAM (b 1826) is living at 119 Westgate Street married to ANN of Shelfanger (aged 28) and they have a 3 year old daughter ELLA EMMA.
We lose track of the third son, JOHN between 1841 and 1881 when he turns up at 7 Harwood Terrace, Fulham, London sharing with the ENGLEFIELD family and married to SOPHIA of Woodbridge, Suffolk. He is 52 years old and still a Millwright.
By 1861, ROBERT (b 1791) and ANN are still together, now 70 years old – again a good age for the time. They still live in Westgate Street and we now know it is number 77.
ROBERT (b 1791) still employs two men. Living with them are two grandsons ARTHUR COOK, aged 24 and THOMAS COOK aged 20, both born in Norwich (these could also be his employees). This implies that Robert and Ann also had a daughter who married and moved away to Norwich unless ARTHUR and THOMAS COOK are adopted grandchildren - maybe through Ann's family (which came from Norwich - maybe she had a sister who died...?) We know that an ISAAC COOK (of Cook's Place fame) farmed from The Grove, Banham and sat on the School Board some 20 years later in 1883 (White's 1883).9
EDWARD (b. circa 1810) and ELIZABETH's son ROBERT (b 1841) is found in Turnpike, Stratton St Mary, Norfolk in 1881 with a wife SUSANNAH aged 32. She was born in nearby Carleton Roole, and they have 4 young sons all born in Stratton St Mary10 . They are living with his much younger brother WILLIAM E GILBERT (born circa 1861) and his family. Both are Millwrights; ROBERT (B 1841) by now being a Master Millwright. SUSANNAH GILBERT (1843-1892) dies and ROBERT, at the age of 53, remarries MARY in about 1893. They have a child MABEL in 1894. ROBERT dies in 1903 (check this could be mary).
WILLIAM E GILBERT marries MARY C. HOGG around 1889 and they have two children ISOBEL A (1890-1952) and WILLIAM E (1889-1951). This line continues today.
1. Notice of auction of chattels, Norfolk Cronicle September 1840 as quoted in www.norfolkmills.co.uk
2. www.wikipedia.com
3bsp; Hingham is on the B1108 and reached by going north through Attleborough - a good 10 miles from Banham.
4. http://www.norfolkmills.co.nz
5. www.norfolkmills.co.nz
6. ANN (HEWITT) GILBERT is probably the same ANN GILBERT who witnessed the youngest Gilbert brother WILLIAM GILBERT's (b 26.12.1802), wedding to REBECCA GASKIN on the 12.10.1831.
7. Norfolk Chronicle - 25th August 1894 quoted in www.norfolkmills.co.uk
8. White's 1836, White's Directory 1845, Hunt's 1850 – not in White's 1883 or Kelly's 1929
9. I concentrated my efforts on Joseph and his family during my research, so the Cook's can easily be checked for in the 1881 census.
10. Robert born 1877 and married to Kate in 1897; George E, born 1878 ; Walter born 1879 and Alfred born 1880
The Brickmakers
The second son of ROBERT (1766-1840) is GEORGE who was born on the 25th July 1796. He's around 4 years younger than his oldest brother ROBERT (b1791) with 2 sisters between them.GEORGE (1796-1876) marries MARY DOVE also from Banham on Valentine's Day in 1815 when he is just 19 years old.
We don't know when GEORGE (1796-1876) became a brickmaker, but we do know that his father owned brick kilns at his death in 1840 and that GEORGE (1796-1876) is listed as a brick maker in the 1841 census when he is 45 years old.
Banham is reported to have grown during the 18th and 19th century:
There is also a site of another brick kiln site nearby recorded in 1797 3 but I don't know who lived there; maybe the Hunt's? It could be where the business started then moved to accommodate demand. The Banham Heritage Register (1991) cites that this brickmaker's was
One of the original kilns (1997)
Carol remembers being told that two pheasants were tithed (quarterly?) to the Duke of Norfolk and indeed, Banham was one of the manors of the Duke of Norfolk4 but this still needs to be confirmed.
On the side of the large barn where Carol worked and stored her stock, were patterned bricks built into the external wall. She preferred to think of this as a sort of 'catalogue' to show customers rather than waste bricks (as claimed in the Banham Heritage Register of 1991). Carol also had heard rumours that the brick makers had made the bricks for the Sandringham Estate 5. I have since checked this out and it seems unlikely, but the thistle brick is interesting!
The reason the bricks were so good was because of the clay pit just outside the village centre. The clay was the closest to be found near the fens and contained the right percentage of iron oxide to make the red 'brick' colour. In 1997 the clay pit was the site of the Monkey Sanctuary at Banham Zoo (and probably still is, if the Zoo hasn't changed it's layout).
At the time of the 1841 census, GEORGE (1796-1876) and Mary and their three children (JAMES (b circa 1816), JOHN (b circa 1821) and MARY ANN (b circa 1826) are still in Banham as are the families of ROBERT (b. 1791) and LIVY (b1805) whilst their brothers JOSEPH (b 1800) and WILLIAM (b 1802) with their respective families have already moved to Bury St Edmunds and their sisters MARY ANN (b 1790), HANNAH MARIA (b 1794) and SARAH (b. 1798) to outlying villages, on marrying. (REBEKAH ISABELL b 1790 and LUCY (b 1793) are where?)
Kelly's Directory and White's Directory of 1845 show that there were 150 people employed making bricks and tiles in Banham with GEORGE GILBERT (1796-1876) listed as a brickmaker as well as J.(John?) Hunt 6. Employing so many people at this time (approx 12% of the local population 7) would have meant that brickmaking would have been very important to the local economy and the livelihood of a large proportion of the village.
The 1851 census shows GEORGE (1796-1876) living at 55 Westgate Street aged 55. He is not only a brickmaker but a farmer of 50 acres employing 15 men, indicating they were well-off financially. MARY (nee Dove) is the same age and listed as a 'farmer's wife'. Their first born son, JAMES (b1815) is still living with them despite being aged 36. He is listed as 'Farmer's son'. GEORGE (1796-1876) and Mary have their grandson Robert GERMANY (b1847) aged 4 (listed in the census as a visitor) staying with them. Their daughter MARY ANN (b1826) had married a local farmer and yeoman John GERMANY8; about 1843 (she would have been only 17 years old) and went on to have 11 children. The young Robert GERMANY (b 1847) may have been being looked after whilst his mother is sick or having another baby, as MARY and John GERMANY's children arrived every 2 years!
GEORGE (1796-1876) and MARY also have a scholar and servant ANN LANCASTER (aged 19) from Fersfield staying with them in 1851. They are still doing well if they have a servant staying with them. The name doesn't seem to appear in the family so is probably not a relative.
We also can see that GEORGE (1796-1876) sees himself more as a farmer than a brickmaker at this time, so may have handed most of the brickmaking business over to the Hunt's.
By the time of the 1871 census, GEORGE (1796-1876) is living at 137 Hunt's Corner and is a widower, aged 74. He is still a farmer with 37 acres and employing 2 men. He has a housekeeper, Elizabeth Rush born in East Harling (maybe a connection with his sister SARAH (b1798) who lives in that village with her husband George WOODCOCK). His eldest son,
GEORGE (1796-1876) dies at 79 years old on 25th January 1876. His death is witnessed by his Grand-daughter EMA (sic) JANE GILBERT who lives in Norwich. It would need to be checked out, but of GEORGE's three children, JAMES (b c1815) stays at home and is handicapped in some way, MARY ANN marries John GERMANY, so her off-spring would carry the family name of Germany, so if EMA is a 'true' grand-daughter she is probably the daughter of JOHN (b.circa 1821). To still have the family name, she is probably a spinster and may have been nursing GEORGE (1796-1876) in his last days. Possibly, there is a Norwich family line which can be followed from the 1851 census as JOHN (b1821) is still in Banham in the 1841 census.
In the 1881 census (five year later), his eldest son, JAMES (b circa1815) is 60 years old and living with his younger sister MARY ANN (b1826) and her husband John GERMANY, one assumes this will have been since GEORGE (1796-1876)'s death. JAMES is identified in that census as as “Handicapped / Imbicile” for the first time.
By 1892, John Hunt is listed as the only brickmaker in Banham. He farms as well 10. Hunt's Corner remains a landmark in the village, the reference to Gilbert's Place and Cook's Place appear to have vanished with time.
Section of Banham Ordnance Survey Map (1884) showing Hunt's Corner, Brick Kilns and Corn Windmill.
Footnotes:
1. MARY ANN GILBERT (b.1790) married in 1813 and so, in 1815 when GEORGE (b.1796) married, she would have been Mary Ann HOWLETT. It may be able to be proved otherwise, but this is why I am assuming that MARIA GILBERT is HANNAH MARIA GILBERT (b. 1794). It was not uncommon for people to be known by their middle names until well into the 20th Century.
2."A School Board of 5 members was formed compulsorily May 20 1875; Jn Roper, clerk to the board & attendance officer. Board School, built in 1878, for 183 children; average attendance 150;" Source: Kelly's Directory of Norfolk & Suffolk 1929.
3. Map of Banham 1797, Source: A Topographical Map of the County of Norfolk Surveyed and Measured in the Years 1790, 91, 92, 93 and 94. By Thos Donald, Thos Milne and Assistants. Planned from a Scale of on Inch to a Statute Mile. The Whole Executed and Published at the expense of the Proprietor William Faden. Geographer to His Majesty and to HRH the Prince of Wales. London August 12th 1797
4.History, Gazeteer, and Directory of Norfolk,etc... by William White. (aka White's Directory) 1836, 1845
5. I checked with the Sandringham archivist (2009).Sandringham Hall was built in 1771, then demolished by the Prince of Wales in 1862 and re-built in 1870, so it is highly unlikely that 'Gilbert' bricks were used at Sandringham unless it was for outhouses. It is conceivable that bricks from Banham were used when the Hunt family had taken over but there are no existing records to confirm this.
6. A James Hunt is the witness at GEORGE (1796-1876)'s brother ROBERT (b1791)'s wedding to Ann HEWITT 20.07.1812. It is highly likely that this is a member of the same Hunt family that were brickmaking along with the Gilberts and indicates a good relationship at the time.
In 1836 JAMES HUNT is a Joiner but later in 1845 and 1850, the Hunt family are closely interlinked with ROBERT's brother GEORGE (b 1796) as tile makers. Refer to Kelly's Directory 1845, White's Directory 1845, Hunt & Co's Directory 1850.
7. Total population of Banham in 1841 was 1165. Source: White's Directory, 1845.
8. The Germany family appears in Banham in the Directories from 1836 – 1883 but are not in the 1892 directory. Then GEORGE GERMANY (b1857?) appears in the 1929 Kelly's Directory as a farmer.
JOSEPH HOWLETT and MARIA GILBERT are the witnesses at the wedding of GEORGE (1796-1876) and Mary. Maria GILBERT1 is probably GEORGE (1796-1876)'s older sister HANNAH MARIA (b. 1794) who would be one month short of being 21. This wedding is nearly 2 years after GEORGE (1796-1876)'s oldest sister MARY ANN (b1790) married Joseph HOWLETT and at which GEORGE (1796-1876) left his mark as a witness even though he was only 17 years old at the time. By not being able to sign the marriage certificate, we can assume that GEORGE (1796-1876) could not write, unlike the Robert Gilbert (either George's brother or father) who signed the Parish Accounts in 1829.There was no formal schooling in the village for another 60 years2 - though GEORGE (1796-1876) could have been taught later on in his life.
We don't know when GEORGE (1796-1876) became a brickmaker, but we do know that his father owned brick kilns at his death in 1840 and that GEORGE (1796-1876) is listed as a brick maker in the 1841 census when he is 45 years old.
Banham is reported to have grown during the 18th and 19th century:
'with the establishment of a brick works at Hunt's Corner to the west of the village and the development of a local cider industry. Hunt's corner named after the owner of one of two separate works which in the 19thC supplied bricks and tiles over a large area of South Norfolk.' (Banham Heritage Register, 1991).From the 1841 census, I knew that GEORGE (1796-1876) lived at 55 Westgate Street and, from the map, the brick works were at Hunt's Corner, so I went to look for it on my visit to Banham.I was delighted to find the house in Grove Road (formerly Westgate Street) and, in 1997, the home of the cottage-industry sized Tey Pottery, run by Carol Tey, well known for being the maker of the Britain in Miniature series. This is definately where GEORGE (1796-1876), ran his brickmaking business from. I was kindly shown around by Carol who told me that the house was originally timber-framed and in-filled at the back with brick.
Brickmaker's Farm (1997)
There is also a site of another brick kiln site nearby recorded in 1797 3 but I don't know who lived there; maybe the Hunt's? It could be where the business started then moved to accommodate demand. The Banham Heritage Register (1991) cites that this brickmaker's was
“...there before 1836. Two separate brickworks (2 firms) in the same place. Former 'Brickmakers Arms' now 'Corner House' with row of brickmakers cottages next door, also a large house, possibly one of the owners houses, next to it. 2 kilns remain, and a barn made from waste bricks.”
Map of Banham (1797) showing location of brick kilns3
Carol showed me two brick 'bottle' shaped kilns in her garden; one used to house a goat, the other left in its original state. She explained that part of her garden was basically hard core from all the bricks crushed into the ground which made a good campsite.
One of the original kilns (1997)
Carol remembers being told that two pheasants were tithed (quarterly?) to the Duke of Norfolk and indeed, Banham was one of the manors of the Duke of Norfolk4 but this still needs to be confirmed.
On the side of the large barn where Carol worked and stored her stock, were patterned bricks built into the external wall. She preferred to think of this as a sort of 'catalogue' to show customers rather than waste bricks (as claimed in the Banham Heritage Register of 1991). Carol also had heard rumours that the brick makers had made the bricks for the Sandringham Estate 5. I have since checked this out and it seems unlikely, but the thistle brick is interesting!
Wall at Brickmaker's Farm made from waste bricks (or a catalogue?!) (1997)
The reason the bricks were so good was because of the clay pit just outside the village centre. The clay was the closest to be found near the fens and contained the right percentage of iron oxide to make the red 'brick' colour. In 1997 the clay pit was the site of the Monkey Sanctuary at Banham Zoo (and probably still is, if the Zoo hasn't changed it's layout).
At the time of the 1841 census, GEORGE (1796-1876) and Mary and their three children (JAMES (b circa 1816), JOHN (b circa 1821) and MARY ANN (b circa 1826) are still in Banham as are the families of ROBERT (b. 1791) and LIVY (b1805) whilst their brothers JOSEPH (b 1800) and WILLIAM (b 1802) with their respective families have already moved to Bury St Edmunds and their sisters MARY ANN (b 1790), HANNAH MARIA (b 1794) and SARAH (b. 1798) to outlying villages, on marrying. (REBEKAH ISABELL b 1790 and LUCY (b 1793) are where?)
Kelly's Directory and White's Directory of 1845 show that there were 150 people employed making bricks and tiles in Banham with GEORGE GILBERT (1796-1876) listed as a brickmaker as well as J.(John?) Hunt 6. Employing so many people at this time (approx 12% of the local population 7) would have meant that brickmaking would have been very important to the local economy and the livelihood of a large proportion of the village.
The 1851 census shows GEORGE (1796-1876) living at 55 Westgate Street aged 55. He is not only a brickmaker but a farmer of 50 acres employing 15 men, indicating they were well-off financially. MARY (nee Dove) is the same age and listed as a 'farmer's wife'. Their first born son, JAMES (b1815) is still living with them despite being aged 36. He is listed as 'Farmer's son'. GEORGE (1796-1876) and Mary have their grandson Robert GERMANY (b1847) aged 4 (listed in the census as a visitor) staying with them. Their daughter MARY ANN (b1826) had married a local farmer and yeoman John GERMANY8; about 1843 (she would have been only 17 years old) and went on to have 11 children. The young Robert GERMANY (b 1847) may have been being looked after whilst his mother is sick or having another baby, as MARY and John GERMANY's children arrived every 2 years!
GEORGE (1796-1876) and MARY also have a scholar and servant ANN LANCASTER (aged 19) from Fersfield staying with them in 1851. They are still doing well if they have a servant staying with them. The name doesn't seem to appear in the family so is probably not a relative.
We also can see that GEORGE (1796-1876) sees himself more as a farmer than a brickmaker at this time, so may have handed most of the brickmaking business over to the Hunt's.
Hunts Corner, Banham (1997)
By the time of the 1871 census, GEORGE (1796-1876) is living at 137 Hunt's Corner and is a widower, aged 74. He is still a farmer with 37 acres and employing 2 men. He has a housekeeper, Elizabeth Rush born in East Harling (maybe a connection with his sister SARAH (b1798) who lives in that village with her husband George WOODCOCK). His eldest son,
JAMES (b1815), now 53, is still unmarried, a famer's son and living with his father. They have another servant; Charlotte Twist aged 18 from Old Buckenham.
In the 1871 Census (?) the description of the parish says '...including the Garden House with Hunt's Corner, Gilbert's and Cook's Place 9.
In the 1871 Census (?) the description of the parish says '...including the Garden House with Hunt's Corner, Gilbert's and Cook's Place 9.
GEORGE (1796-1876) dies at 79 years old on 25th January 1876. His death is witnessed by his Grand-daughter EMA (sic) JANE GILBERT who lives in Norwich. It would need to be checked out, but of GEORGE's three children, JAMES (b c1815) stays at home and is handicapped in some way, MARY ANN marries John GERMANY, so her off-spring would carry the family name of Germany, so if EMA is a 'true' grand-daughter she is probably the daughter of JOHN (b.circa 1821). To still have the family name, she is probably a spinster and may have been nursing GEORGE (1796-1876) in his last days. Possibly, there is a Norwich family line which can be followed from the 1851 census as JOHN (b1821) is still in Banham in the 1841 census.
George Gilbert's Death Certificate (1876)
In the 1881 census (five year later), his eldest son, JAMES (b circa1815) is 60 years old and living with his younger sister MARY ANN (b1826) and her husband John GERMANY, one assumes this will have been since GEORGE (1796-1876)'s death. JAMES is identified in that census as as “Handicapped / Imbicile” for the first time.
By 1892, John Hunt is listed as the only brickmaker in Banham. He farms as well 10. Hunt's Corner remains a landmark in the village, the reference to Gilbert's Place and Cook's Place appear to have vanished with time.
Section of Banham Ordnance Survey Map (1884) showing Hunt's Corner, Brick Kilns and Corn Windmill.
Footnotes:
1. MARY ANN GILBERT (b.1790) married in 1813 and so, in 1815 when GEORGE (b.1796) married, she would have been Mary Ann HOWLETT. It may be able to be proved otherwise, but this is why I am assuming that MARIA GILBERT is HANNAH MARIA GILBERT (b. 1794). It was not uncommon for people to be known by their middle names until well into the 20th Century.
2."A School Board of 5 members was formed compulsorily May 20 1875; Jn Roper, clerk to the board & attendance officer. Board School, built in 1878, for 183 children; average attendance 150;" Source: Kelly's Directory of Norfolk & Suffolk 1929.
3. Map of Banham 1797, Source: A Topographical Map of the County of Norfolk Surveyed and Measured in the Years 1790, 91, 92, 93 and 94. By Thos Donald, Thos Milne and Assistants. Planned from a Scale of on Inch to a Statute Mile. The Whole Executed and Published at the expense of the Proprietor William Faden. Geographer to His Majesty and to HRH the Prince of Wales. London August 12th 1797
4.History, Gazeteer, and Directory of Norfolk,etc... by William White. (aka White's Directory) 1836, 1845
5. I checked with the Sandringham archivist (2009).Sandringham Hall was built in 1771, then demolished by the Prince of Wales in 1862 and re-built in 1870, so it is highly unlikely that 'Gilbert' bricks were used at Sandringham unless it was for outhouses. It is conceivable that bricks from Banham were used when the Hunt family had taken over but there are no existing records to confirm this.
6. A James Hunt is the witness at GEORGE (1796-1876)'s brother ROBERT (b1791)'s wedding to Ann HEWITT 20.07.1812. It is highly likely that this is a member of the same Hunt family that were brickmaking along with the Gilberts and indicates a good relationship at the time.
In 1836 JAMES HUNT is a Joiner but later in 1845 and 1850, the Hunt family are closely interlinked with ROBERT's brother GEORGE (b 1796) as tile makers. Refer to Kelly's Directory 1845, White's Directory 1845, Hunt & Co's Directory 1850.
7. Total population of Banham in 1841 was 1165. Source: White's Directory, 1845.
8. The Germany family appears in Banham in the Directories from 1836 – 1883 but are not in the 1892 directory. Then GEORGE GERMANY (b1857?) appears in the 1929 Kelly's Directory as a farmer.
9.Isaac Cook was a farmer and member of the School Board living at The Grove 1883, White's Directory 1883.
10. By 1892 John Birkbeck Hunt is the only brickmaker listed in Banham (Kelly's Directory, 1892) and by 1929 there are no brickmakers living in Banham and Brickmaker's Farm is inhabited by a farmer Thomas Newton. (Kelly's Directory, 1929)
10. By 1892 John Birkbeck Hunt is the only brickmaker listed in Banham (Kelly's Directory, 1892) and by 1929 there are no brickmakers living in Banham and Brickmaker's Farm is inhabited by a farmer Thomas Newton. (Kelly's Directory, 1929)
The Cider Makers
When SARAH (b1798) married George WOODCOCK of East Harling on 20th July 1819, the marriage was witnessed by John GAYMER and Mary PALMER (unknown connection with the family but at a guess, could be George Woodcock's married sister). The Gaymer family had a cider making business in Banham that was very well known and cited as having been in existence since circa 16801. In my childhood (early 1960s), Gaymer's cider was a well known brand until (if my memory serves me well) the 1970s.
It is highly likely that the Gilbert family had connections with the cider making industry. This may have been part of their farming activity – we know that ROBERT GILBERT (1766-1840 ) had orchards (from his Will) and JOSEPH (b1800) was an Engineer. In those days, being an engineer meant someone who had knowledge of mechanics. A cider press is mechanical as are pressured vats so I strongly believe that he may have maintained the cider presses until heading for Bury St Edmonds where we find him in 1841.
The village sign, although modern, shows the brick kiln, cider apples and cider press.
It is highly likely that the Gilbert family had connections with the cider making industry. This may have been part of their farming activity – we know that ROBERT GILBERT (1766-1840 ) had orchards (from his Will) and JOSEPH (b1800) was an Engineer. In those days, being an engineer meant someone who had knowledge of mechanics. A cider press is mechanical as are pressured vats so I strongly believe that he may have maintained the cider presses until heading for Bury St Edmonds where we find him in 1841.
The village sign, although modern, shows the brick kiln, cider apples and cider press.
The Engineer
JOSEPH GILBERT (b1800) is the third of the four sons and eighth child of ROBERT GILBERT (1766-1840) and Mary KENT. According to the Banham baptismal register, he was born on 11th December 1800 and baptised five days later.
JOSEPH (b.1800) married three months before his 17th birthday on the 22nd September 1817 in the nearby village of Kenninghall, his bride's home. The marriage is witnessed by Charles Bailey and Jemima West (probably Mary Ann's sister or mother?) two references I haven't pursued.
It doesn't seem odd to me that JOSEPH (b1800) becomes an Engineer. His brother and father (ROBERT (1766-1840 and ROBERT b 1791) are successful Millwrights and his other brother GEORGE (1797-1876) is a brickmaker. They are all farming at the same time. JOSEPH (b1800) would be surrounded by early manufacture, presses, new agricultural machinery, mills and forging. This was the time of industrial revolution and if he showed any aptitude in mechanics, it would be natural to follow a trade so in demand at the time.
Within 9 years JOSEPH (b1800) was heading south. One assumes, like many young people at the time, following the draw of the opportunities and wages of the developing towns and cities of the Industrial Revolution.
JOSEPH (b1800) went first to Bury St Edmunds, where Greene King ale has been brewed and it is conceivable that his engineering knowledge is linked with brewing from the cider presses and pressure vats being used in Banham. I have contacted the Greene King factory but there are no records to prove this.
This may also have brought him to London, though at the time of the industrial revolution, with much being driven by steam, his engineering knowledge would have been adaptable to any 'manufactory'.
JOSEPH (b.1800) married three months before his 17th birthday on the 22nd September 1817 in the nearby village of Kenninghall, his bride's home. The marriage is witnessed by Charles Bailey and Jemima West (probably Mary Ann's sister or mother?) two references I haven't pursued.
It doesn't seem odd to me that JOSEPH (b1800) becomes an Engineer. His brother and father (ROBERT (1766-1840 and ROBERT b 1791) are successful Millwrights and his other brother GEORGE (1797-1876) is a brickmaker. They are all farming at the same time. JOSEPH (b1800) would be surrounded by early manufacture, presses, new agricultural machinery, mills and forging. This was the time of industrial revolution and if he showed any aptitude in mechanics, it would be natural to follow a trade so in demand at the time.
Within 9 years JOSEPH (b1800) was heading south. One assumes, like many young people at the time, following the draw of the opportunities and wages of the developing towns and cities of the Industrial Revolution.
JOSEPH (b1800) went first to Bury St Edmunds, where Greene King ale has been brewed and it is conceivable that his engineering knowledge is linked with brewing from the cider presses and pressure vats being used in Banham. I have contacted the Greene King factory but there are no records to prove this.
This may also have brought him to London, though at the time of the industrial revolution, with much being driven by steam, his engineering knowledge would have been adaptable to any 'manufactory'.
Bury St Edmunds in the 1820's
My ancestor is JOSEPH (b1800) [8th child and 3rd of 4 sons of ROBERT GILBERT (1766-1840) and Mary Kent] who appears to have moved to Bury St Edmonds, Suffolk sometime before 1826 after marrying Mary Ann WEST on 22 September 1817 in her home village of Kenninghall (near Banham). JOSEPH (b1800) was only 16 when he married.
There is no record of any children until circa 1821 1 when JOHN (b circa 1821) is born in Banham. JOSEPH (b.1800) and Mary Ann end up having 6 children as far as we know, but I suspect that there may have been some other children before then due to his being so young at his marriage - though I didn't find any records that would confirm this.
JOHN (c1821's younger siblings were born in Bury St Edmonds; CHARLES (b circa 1826), HARRY (b. circa 1828), SALLY (b. circa 1831), ROBERT (b circa 1833) and LUCY (b circa 1840) 2. They are all registered as living at North Gate Street - which I visited in 1997.
Northgate Street, Bury St Edmonds (1997)
As mentioned in the chapter The Engineer, I believe JOSEPH (b1800)'s trade as an Engineer had something to do with brewing machinery which he would have been learned in the cider making industry. Greene King brewery is built on the site of a brewery in Westgate that was there since 1700. Northgate to Westgate Bury St Edmonds
We don't have the number of their house, but on Northgate Street which is a row of joined houses, except for a Wine Merchants amongst the dwellings with a gateway and drive to the back (maybe for dreys?)
This is the only break in the row. At a complete guess this property may have been their workshop as the other buildings in the street are residential except for a Post Office/shop two-doors along.
Obviously this needs further investigation.
The Wine Merchants (1997) possibly the home of
Joseph (b1800) and Mary Ann circa 1820-1830
There is no record of any children until circa 1821 1 when JOHN (b circa 1821) is born in Banham. JOSEPH (b.1800) and Mary Ann end up having 6 children as far as we know, but I suspect that there may have been some other children before then due to his being so young at his marriage - though I didn't find any records that would confirm this.
JOHN (c1821's younger siblings were born in Bury St Edmonds; CHARLES (b circa 1826), HARRY (b. circa 1828), SALLY (b. circa 1831), ROBERT (b circa 1833) and LUCY (b circa 1840) 2. They are all registered as living at North Gate Street - which I visited in 1997.
Northgate Street, Bury St Edmonds (1997)
As mentioned in the chapter The Engineer, I believe JOSEPH (b1800)'s trade as an Engineer had something to do with brewing machinery which he would have been learned in the cider making industry. Greene King brewery is built on the site of a brewery in Westgate that was there since 1700. Northgate to Westgate Bury St Edmonds
We don't have the number of their house, but on Northgate Street which is a row of joined houses, except for a Wine Merchants amongst the dwellings with a gateway and drive to the back (maybe for dreys?)
This is the only break in the row. At a complete guess this property may have been their workshop as the other buildings in the street are residential except for a Post Office/shop two-doors along.
Obviously this needs further investigation.
The other side of the Wine Merchants drive way showing
the joined houses and the post office/shop.
The Wine Merchants (1997) possibly the home of
Joseph (b1800) and Mary Ann circa 1820-1830
London - 1840s-1914
A Father and Son Partnership (The 1840s)
JOSEPH (b1800) and his son JOHN (b1821) move to Lambeth, a suburb in South London around 1840. They take JOSEPH (b1800)'s youngest children (ROBERT (b circa 1833) and LUCY (b circa 1840)) with them, leaving CHARLES (b circa 1826), HARRY (b circa 1828) and SALLY (b circa1831) all by now of age, in Bury St Edmonds. I haven't followed these lines through but it is likely that there are Gilberts still in Bury St Edmunds that come from this family.
Once in Lambeth, JOHN (b1821) meets and marries a Bethnal Green girl; JANE ELIZABETH REYNOLDS in the Parish Church of St Mary, Lambeth (.Picture of St Mary's) They marry on 11th July 1841. Her father Charles, also an engineer, may have worked with JOSEPH (b1800) and his engineer son, JOHN (b1821) and witnesses the marriage with a J. L. Gassler. JOHN (b1821) is living in Waterloo Road at the time of his marriage. Both are of full age, so one assumes 21 years old, although the ages aren't stated.
By the 1851 Census JOSEPH (b1800) and his son JOHN (b 1821) are living opposite each other (at numbers 43 and 44) respectively in Boston Street, Shoreditch, on the north side of the River Thames. JOSEPH has Mary Ann and their two youngest children and ROBERT (b1833) and LUCY (b1840) living with them. It's not clear from the copy of the census that I have, but it appears that JOSEPH is 50 and Mary Ann 54 at this time.
By now JOHN (b1821) and Jane have three children JOHN (8?) JOSEPH (b1845) aged 6, and ALFRED (b 1848) aged 3.
JOHN (b1821) also states they are living in Boston Street at Union Mills in 1854 and the Engine Works, Boston Street (1855). One assumes this is the same place but whether they are living there as owners or employees is unknown. Incredibly at the end of the road according to the map of 1872, there is a Brewery.
I visited the site which is just off Hackney Road. It is now the Hackney City Farm. Much of the surrounding area was waiting to be re-developed in 1997 so I could get a good feeling of what it must have been like. The street sign for Boston Street was still attached to the wall of a school built in 1873.
According to the City Farm website,
to be a comfortable life in a delightful Norfolk village to 'dark satanic mills', especially when you read the description below:
The Inventor ( The 1850s)
My grandfather (ALBERT EDWARD Gilbert (1904-1998) remembers his great-grandfather (JOHN b 1821) as
In consulting the Patent's Office records, there are many submitted patents that have not been sealed under the name 'Gilbert' which may indicate their originality was challenged. This would have to be verified through court records if they still exist.
However, two patents were sealed:
JOHN (b1821) and Jane have 4 sons, the youngest is GEORGE FITZHERBERT born on the 4th of August1854 and is my direct line. Interestingly his birth wasn't registered for over a month. And then by his mother. The origins of the middle name Fitzhertbert are currently a mystery. Normally anyone called Fitz.... is illegitimate. But GEORGE (1854- ) is the youngest son, so this would not be the case here. It may be that Fitzherbert is a name inherited from his mother, Jane's (Reynolds) side.
We believed from ALBERT EDWARD (1904-1998) that two of George's brothers emigrated to the USA. To date there are no records to support, or deny this, but neither JOSEPH (b circa 1845) nor ALFRED (born circa 1848) seem to be on the 1881 census for Middlesex or Surrey. However there was a cholera outbreak in 1866 that took the lives of many living in the crowded inner London districts, To date, I haven't searched for their Death certificates.
Back South of the River (The 1870s)
By 1873 the family are living back south of the River Thames in 30 Raymouth Rd, Rotherhithe SE16. Raymouth Road is right next to the railway line and close to Southwark Park which was opened in 1869.
GEORGE FITZHERBERT (1854- ) marries a Bermondsey girl Elizabeth POW on 25th April 1875 in the Parish Church of St John's Southwark. He's 21 and she is 19 years old.
Living with the In-Laws (The 1880s)
In 1881 and 1896, GEORGE FITZHERBERT (1854- ) is a Pottery Works Engine Driver – at marriage (1875) he was cited as an Engineer like his father (JOHN b1821) and on the birth of their first son two years later in 1877 he is cited as an Engine Fitter.
Elizabeth's parents William Pow and Ann Rebecca (nee Fudge) lived at 46 Raymouth Road from 1880 -1893, so Elizabeth was 'the girl next door' – ish!
We are not sure which pottery GEORGE FITZHERBERT (b1854) worked at as there were several in the area. However, it could be the Doulton Works at Lambeth, due to a 3 inch (5.5 cm) jug inscribed with his name and the date 1887 that my father has. This doesn't quite make sense however, and needs further research:
George would only have been 33 years old so the ornament wouldn't be for long-service (and married 12 years – the 9th anniversary is celebrated with pottery!) so it seems strange for him to be awarded a little jug, or as a driver, to have made it himself. I haven't seen anything in Doulton history on the web to indicate why this would be a special year to the factory either. Alternatively it could be from a member of another branch of the family – another little mystery maybe?
Just out of interest, Elizabeth's father was a leather dresser (and later her brother was a Tanner) which fits in with the area they lived in;
GEORGE FITZHERBERT (1854- ) and Elizabeth have 4 sons and one daughter. Just over 2 years after their marriage, the eldest (and my direct line) WILLIAM GEORGE was born on 16th May 1877 at 53 Silverlock Street, Rotherhithe. I think this is near Warndon St, just round the corner from Raymouth Road. Again it takes over a month to register the birth which was done by Elizabeth.
Four years later, by the 1881 census, GEORGE FITZHERBERT (1854- ), his wife Elizabeth, 2 of their children x and y are living at 46 Raymouth Road, Rotherhithe with Elizabeth's parents (in their 60s) and John Pow, (Elizabeth's brother aged 37 unmarried, unemployed and also born in Bermondsey). This makes a household of seven and I can only speculate whether it was through choice or hard times.
Within the next 10 years, Elizabeth's father William Pow has died. The 1891 census shows us the household still includes Ann Pow, now a widow aged 75 and John Pow, GEORGE FITZHERBERT's brother-in-law aged 47 who is now a Tanner.
By 1904, GEORGE FITZHERBERT (1854) and Elizabeth have moved to 14 Poplar Road, Camberwell. This (and her age) probably indicates that Ann Pow is by now deceased. Maybe John Pow remained at Raymouth Road. This would need to be investigated.
My grandad (ALBERT EDWARD (1904-1998) remembers having an uncle nicknamed 'Jumbo'. Indeed an elephant called Jumbo was brought for London Zoo by P. T. Barnam in 1882, so 'Jumbo' could conceivably be ALFRED (born about 1882). Grandad remembers his uncle Jumbo being a Stoker in the Royal Navy. I have looked at some ship's records but didn't find anything, however, this may still be traceable. His brother ARTHUR is remembered by grandad as being a "driver of a horse and cart".
ELIZABETH JANE (aka LILLIAN) married JOSEPH KING (1870-1931) a Draper's Collector in 1910. She would have been 24 years old. They had 6 children Katheryn (1912-1985), Joe (1914- ?), Nellie (1916-?), Len (1920-2002), Phyllis (1922-?) and Bernard (1924-1963). LILLIE who died in 1974 at Lewisham Hospital at the age of 61 8.
ELIZABETH POW died of tuberculosis on the 29th May 1904 at 14 Poplar Road in Camberwell. She was only 47 and her husband George was with her at her death. He would have been widowed at the age of 50.
Third Generation Londoners (The 1890s)
Returning back to the eldest son, WILLIAM GEORGE (1877-1933); he started his working life as a printer's machine boy (aged 14 circa 1891) but within five years had become a Stoker by trade. For some unknown reason the marriage certificate states his name as WILLIAM JOHN when he marries SARAH ANNIE ROGERS on the 24th May 1896 in St Crispin's Church, Bermondsey. It is undoubtably the same person. WILLIAM (1877-1933) was 19 and Sarah was 18.
Sarah was given a Book of Common Prayer by the officiating minister which I still have.
From the marriage certificate we see that GEORGE FITZHERBERT (b1854) is still an Engine Driver though we don't know if that was still at the Pottery he was working at in 1881. Sarah Annie ROGERS (1878-1933) was living at 28 Southwark Park Road and her father Henry ROGERS was a Lighterman on the Thames.
There is a family story that Henry ROGERS fell into the Thames and drowned whilst working. Sarah's mother re-married a docker who regularly became drunk (family name ELLIS?). He would fall asleep at his meal so she would give his food to the children and tell him he had eaten it when he woke.
Mother of Sarah Annie Rogers circa 1900
The Turn of the Century (The 1900s)
Sarah and WILLIAM GEORGE (1877-1933) had six children. I am descended from ALBERT EDWARD (1904-1998) their fifth child.
WILLIAM GEORGE (1877-1933) and Sarah Annie with five of their 6 children.
Far right: William George (1897-1916), next right Emily Grace (1898-1990)
Bottom row: on rocking horse, Albert Edward (1904-1998), Alfred Henry (1903-1974) Sarah Annie (1878-1928), Lillian (1900-1974). Thomas (?-?) wasn't born yet, dating the picture at around 1906.
I was able to photocopy this picture just before it disintegrated – hence poor quality. Originally it was sepia, about A3 size and had been framed at one time.
SARAH ANNIE (1878-1928) circa 1910. This a home photograph, and the clothes seem later than those above, so the child she is holding may be Tom.
Footnotes:
1 how we work out John birthdate
2. 1841 Census
3. From the 1881 Census (Middlesex) we find a ROBERT GILBERT, Engine Fitter living at 8 Pundersons Gardens, Bethnal Green. He is married to CATHERINE borth in North Roode who does somthing will bonnets (writing is unclear). They are both 48 years old. They have five children living with them; HELLEN, Furworker aged 17, SARAH, Trimmer aged 14, MINNIE, Scholar aged 11, ALICE, aged 9 and ROSE aged 5.
4. As shown on GEORGE FITZHERBERT's Birth Certificate, August 1854
5. Patent No 552 dated 12th September 1855 is An Improved Pump or Pumping Apparatus by John Gilbert of the Engine Works, Boston Street, Hackney.
6. Stephen Humphrey (TBA)
7. Leather (TBA)
8. Lillian King (TBA)
JOSEPH (b1800) and his son JOHN (b1821) move to Lambeth, a suburb in South London around 1840. They take JOSEPH (b1800)'s youngest children (ROBERT (b circa 1833) and LUCY (b circa 1840)) with them, leaving CHARLES (b circa 1826), HARRY (b circa 1828) and SALLY (b circa1831) all by now of age, in Bury St Edmonds. I haven't followed these lines through but it is likely that there are Gilberts still in Bury St Edmunds that come from this family.
Once in Lambeth, JOHN (b1821) meets and marries a Bethnal Green girl; JANE ELIZABETH REYNOLDS in the Parish Church of St Mary, Lambeth (.Picture of St Mary's) They marry on 11th July 1841. Her father Charles, also an engineer, may have worked with JOSEPH (b1800) and his engineer son, JOHN (b1821) and witnesses the marriage with a J. L. Gassler. JOHN (b1821) is living in Waterloo Road at the time of his marriage. Both are of full age, so one assumes 21 years old, although the ages aren't stated.
By the 1851 Census JOSEPH (b1800) and his son JOHN (b 1821) are living opposite each other (at numbers 43 and 44) respectively in Boston Street, Shoreditch, on the north side of the River Thames. JOSEPH has Mary Ann and their two youngest children and ROBERT (b1833) and LUCY (b1840) living with them. It's not clear from the copy of the census that I have, but it appears that JOSEPH is 50 and Mary Ann 54 at this time.
By now JOHN (b1821) and Jane have three children JOHN (8?) JOSEPH (b1845) aged 6, and ALFRED (b 1848) aged 3.
Old Ordnance Survey Map : Shoreditch 1872
JOHN (b1821) also states they are living in Boston Street at Union Mills in 1854 and the Engine Works, Boston Street (1855). One assumes this is the same place but whether they are living there as owners or employees is unknown. Incredibly at the end of the road according to the map of 1872, there is a Brewery.
Boston Street , Shoreditch, London EC2
showing the Brewery at the Hackney Road end,
now site of the Hackney City Farm
(detail from : Old Ordnance Survey Map : Shoreditch 1872)
I visited the site which is just off Hackney Road. It is now the Hackney City Farm. Much of the surrounding area was waiting to be re-developed in 1997 so I could get a good feeling of what it must have been like. The street sign for Boston Street was still attached to the wall of a school built in 1873.
According to the City Farm website,
“In the early 1800s the site was occupied by farmers and market gardeners supplying fresh produce to the city of London.You can see from the map how, by the 1870s, inner London was typical narrow small terraced housing. However, I am very curious about Union Mills. Was this house free for its workers? Were Joseph and John working for a pre-cursor to the Brewery or did they have their own Engineering works in this area? I hope to find out more about this in the future. I suppose I don't want to believe that, from looking through my 21st C eyes, the family went from what seemed
Later as the area became built up, a brewery occupied the site and beer was brewed from late 1880s until the 1930s. West’s brewery as it was then, supplied beer to its own public houses in Hackney Road and nearby Bethnal Green. The water used in the brewing process was supplied by a well, still present today (although capped) in the front garden. “
to be a comfortable life in a delightful Norfolk village to 'dark satanic mills', especially when you read the description below:
Shoreditch with its mere 640 acres, had grown faster than any other London parish in the first half of the century and by 1851 it had nearly 130,000 inhabitants. Although the numbers declined thereafter, they did so only slowly. Shoreditch in 1870 was still grossly overcrowded.... Many inhabitants were living in impossibly crowded and airless conditions... The New River Company had not yet provided Shoreditch with a constant water supply......The population was constantly shifting....Those who could afford to, moved away from Shoreditch. Those who came in to replace them, uprooted by other clearances and railway development were those who could afford nothing better.....There were, as there had been for decades, public houses galore.” (Old Ordnance Survey Map: Shoreditch 1872)
The Inventor ( The 1850s)
My grandfather (ALBERT EDWARD Gilbert (1904-1998) remembers his great-grandfather (JOHN b 1821) as
“a man of sub-stature, with coach and horse and by profession an engineer. I was told, as a child, that he lost his money at law, fighting cases (with people) who had stolen his inventions. “
In consulting the Patent's Office records, there are many submitted patents that have not been sealed under the name 'Gilbert' which may indicate their originality was challenged. This would have to be verified through court records if they still exist.
However, two patents were sealed:
- Patent No 552 dated 12th September 1855 is An Improved Pump or Pumping Apparatus by John Gilbert of the Engine Works, Boston Street, Hackney.
- Patent No 2029, dated 6th December 1873 by John Gilbert of Raymouth Road, South Bermondsey is :Gilbert's Improvements in Obtaining and Applying Motive Power. This also refers to a Patent No 2568 dated 15th October 1861.
JOHN (b1821) and Jane have 4 sons, the youngest is GEORGE FITZHERBERT born on the 4th of August1854 and is my direct line. Interestingly his birth wasn't registered for over a month. And then by his mother. The origins of the middle name Fitzhertbert are currently a mystery. Normally anyone called Fitz.... is illegitimate. But GEORGE (1854- ) is the youngest son, so this would not be the case here. It may be that Fitzherbert is a name inherited from his mother, Jane's (Reynolds) side.
We believed from ALBERT EDWARD (1904-1998) that two of George's brothers emigrated to the USA. To date there are no records to support, or deny this, but neither JOSEPH (b circa 1845) nor ALFRED (born circa 1848) seem to be on the 1881 census for Middlesex or Surrey. However there was a cholera outbreak in 1866 that took the lives of many living in the crowded inner London districts, To date, I haven't searched for their Death certificates.
Back South of the River (The 1870s)
By 1873 the family are living back south of the River Thames in 30 Raymouth Rd, Rotherhithe SE16. Raymouth Road is right next to the railway line and close to Southwark Park which was opened in 1869.
Raymouth Road is just off the right-hand corner of this map
(Old Ordnance Survey Maps: Bermondsey and Wapping 1894)
“The railway line runs from London Bridge Station and began as the London and Greenwich Railway in 1836.... Bermondsey and Wapping were poor and crowded districts by 1894: poor because much of the local employment was casual and unskilled, and because those who could afford to live in more salubrious districts moved away from the warehouses, factories and railway viaducts; and crowded because the land was entirely developed by 1894, yet commerce and industry needed more space in districts where casual employment compelled large numbers to live very near their places of work.....(Stephen Humphrey 6)
GEORGE FITZHERBERT (1854- ) marries a Bermondsey girl Elizabeth POW on 25th April 1875 in the Parish Church of St John's Southwark. He's 21 and she is 19 years old.
George Fitzherbert and Elizabeth Pow's Marriage Certificate (1875)
Living with the In-Laws (The 1880s)
In 1881 and 1896, GEORGE FITZHERBERT (1854- ) is a Pottery Works Engine Driver – at marriage (1875) he was cited as an Engineer like his father (JOHN b1821) and on the birth of their first son two years later in 1877 he is cited as an Engine Fitter.
Elizabeth's parents William Pow and Ann Rebecca (nee Fudge) lived at 46 Raymouth Road from 1880 -1893, so Elizabeth was 'the girl next door' – ish!
We are not sure which pottery GEORGE FITZHERBERT (b1854) worked at as there were several in the area. However, it could be the Doulton Works at Lambeth, due to a 3 inch (5.5 cm) jug inscribed with his name and the date 1887 that my father has. This doesn't quite make sense however, and needs further research:
Just out of interest, Elizabeth's father was a leather dresser (and later her brother was a Tanner) which fits in with the area they lived in;
“As crucial to the economy of Bermonsey as the river was the leather industry. The tanneries occupied much space south of the railway.” 7
GEORGE FITZHERBERT (1854- ) and Elizabeth have 4 sons and one daughter. Just over 2 years after their marriage, the eldest (and my direct line) WILLIAM GEORGE was born on 16th May 1877 at 53 Silverlock Street, Rotherhithe. I think this is near Warndon St, just round the corner from Raymouth Road. Again it takes over a month to register the birth which was done by Elizabeth.
Four years later, by the 1881 census, GEORGE FITZHERBERT (1854- ), his wife Elizabeth, 2 of their children x and y are living at 46 Raymouth Road, Rotherhithe with Elizabeth's parents (in their 60s) and John Pow, (Elizabeth's brother aged 37 unmarried, unemployed and also born in Bermondsey). This makes a household of seven and I can only speculate whether it was through choice or hard times.
Within the next 10 years, Elizabeth's father William Pow has died. The 1891 census shows us the household still includes Ann Pow, now a widow aged 75 and John Pow, GEORGE FITZHERBERT's brother-in-law aged 47 who is now a Tanner.
By 1904, GEORGE FITZHERBERT (1854) and Elizabeth have moved to 14 Poplar Road, Camberwell. This (and her age) probably indicates that Ann Pow is by now deceased. Maybe John Pow remained at Raymouth Road. This would need to be investigated.
Poplar Road, Camberwell, South London
My grandad (ALBERT EDWARD (1904-1998) remembers having an uncle nicknamed 'Jumbo'. Indeed an elephant called Jumbo was brought for London Zoo by P. T. Barnam in 1882, so 'Jumbo' could conceivably be ALFRED (born about 1882). Grandad remembers his uncle Jumbo being a Stoker in the Royal Navy. I have looked at some ship's records but didn't find anything, however, this may still be traceable. His brother ARTHUR is remembered by grandad as being a "driver of a horse and cart".
ELIZABETH JANE (aka LILLIAN) married JOSEPH KING (1870-1931) a Draper's Collector in 1910. She would have been 24 years old. They had 6 children Katheryn (1912-1985), Joe (1914- ?), Nellie (1916-?), Len (1920-2002), Phyllis (1922-?) and Bernard (1924-1963). LILLIE who died in 1974 at Lewisham Hospital at the age of 61 8.
ELIZABETH POW died of tuberculosis on the 29th May 1904 at 14 Poplar Road in Camberwell. She was only 47 and her husband George was with her at her death. He would have been widowed at the age of 50.
Death Certificate of Elizabeth Pow (1904)
Third Generation Londoners (The 1890s)
Returning back to the eldest son, WILLIAM GEORGE (1877-1933); he started his working life as a printer's machine boy (aged 14 circa 1891) but within five years had become a Stoker by trade. For some unknown reason the marriage certificate states his name as WILLIAM JOHN when he marries SARAH ANNIE ROGERS on the 24th May 1896 in St Crispin's Church, Bermondsey. It is undoubtably the same person. WILLIAM (1877-1933) was 19 and Sarah was 18.
The marriage certificate of William and Sarah Annie Rogers 24th May 1896
(William George is now William John)
Sarah was given a Book of Common Prayer by the officiating minister which I still have.
From the marriage certificate we see that GEORGE FITZHERBERT (b1854) is still an Engine Driver though we don't know if that was still at the Pottery he was working at in 1881. Sarah Annie ROGERS (1878-1933) was living at 28 Southwark Park Road and her father Henry ROGERS was a Lighterman on the Thames.
Mother of Sarah Annie Rogers circa 1900
Sarah Annie Gilbert (nee Rogers) circa 1896
Thought to be at the time of her marriage in 1896
by the wedding ring being clearly shown in the pose and from the clothes.
Sarah Annie circa 1900
Probably a bit later – thinner face, leg o' mutton sleeves and lace cap(?)
– a style she is wearing in the family picture of about 1906
The Turn of the Century (The 1900s)
Sarah and WILLIAM GEORGE (1877-1933) had six children. I am descended from ALBERT EDWARD (1904-1998) their fifth child.
WILLIAM GEORGE (1877-1933) and Sarah Annie with five of their 6 children.
Far right: William George (1897-1916), next right Emily Grace (1898-1990)
Bottom row: on rocking horse, Albert Edward (1904-1998), Alfred Henry (1903-1974) Sarah Annie (1878-1928), Lillian (1900-1974). Thomas (?-?) wasn't born yet, dating the picture at around 1906.
I was able to photocopy this picture just before it disintegrated – hence poor quality. Originally it was sepia, about A3 size and had been framed at one time.
SARAH ANNIE (1878-1928) circa 1910. This a home photograph, and the clothes seem later than those above, so the child she is holding may be Tom.
Footnotes:
1 how we work out John birthdate
2. 1841 Census
3. From the 1881 Census (Middlesex) we find a ROBERT GILBERT, Engine Fitter living at 8 Pundersons Gardens, Bethnal Green. He is married to CATHERINE borth in North Roode who does somthing will bonnets (writing is unclear). They are both 48 years old. They have five children living with them; HELLEN, Furworker aged 17, SARAH, Trimmer aged 14, MINNIE, Scholar aged 11, ALICE, aged 9 and ROSE aged 5.
4. As shown on GEORGE FITZHERBERT's Birth Certificate, August 1854
5. Patent No 552 dated 12th September 1855 is An Improved Pump or Pumping Apparatus by John Gilbert of the Engine Works, Boston Street, Hackney.
6. Stephen Humphrey (TBA)
7. Leather (TBA)
8. Lillian King (TBA)
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